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Diesel
So when his "Flame Surfacing" designs started rolling out, everyone HATED it! It's use of heavy creases and curves to play against lights and shadows was just too revolutionary.. But did he get the last laugh now that you see this style of design being more commonplace?








Bjorn
I hate to say "I told you so" but I was kinda predicting that this would happen.

I read an interview with Bangle years ago about why his cars were styled the way they were and he said it was a response to consumer demand for bigger and bigger cars. His use of negative space hid the true size of the cars he designed.

As it was adopted by the more prestigious manufacturers to hide the bulk of their sedans the smaller companies, who ape their designs normally, took note and started using it as well.
350Z
I always liked his designs, I especially like how his styling made the M-Sport versions of the 3 and the 5 look so much better than the SE.
clarkma5
I already noticed a few years ago that the bulk of the industry was moving to become Bangled. It's not a bad thing in and of itself, but I'm getting really tired of how similar everything's looking these days, how many cues are all the same, and how so many cars look like cartoon caricatures of themselves. I'm the sort of guy who's really good at spotting subtle differences between cars but I just keep getting more and more struck by how everything is the same!
Razor
What the FUCK is that second one!?
Diesel
QUOTE(Razor @ Apr 16 2012, 02:52 PM) *
What the FUCK is that second one!?

Mercedes A Class Concept.. which is not out yet. production version is here:

Razor
QUOTE(Diesel @ Apr 16 2012, 07:08 PM) *
Mercedes A Class Concept.. which is not out yet. production version is here:



I want the one from the concept photo with the C63 Black powertrain and those wheels.
moe
^ You may get something better. AMG's going to do an A25 AMG, which uses an four-cylinder turbo originally developed for F1's aborted future regulations. It'll put out 350bhp and have AWD. The entire super hatch market has just been put on notice by AMG.

Also, there was only one Bangle design I didn't like...and I absolutely hated it tbh...that was the original fat 7-series.
350Z
^350 isn't any more than any of the other super hatches. Also imo the idea of a super hatch is stupid anyway, why anyone would spend £40K plus on a hatchback is beyond me.
Razor
QUOTE(350Z @ Apr 17 2012, 09:21 AM) *
^350 isn't any more than any of the other super hatches. Also imo the idea of a super hatch is stupid anyway, why anyone would spend £40K plus on a hatchback is beyond me.


I'd spend over $200k on a hot hatch:



biggrin.gif
350Z
That's a shooting-brake. Just sayin.
Bjorn
^QFT
moe
QUOTE(350Z @ Apr 17 2012, 05:21 PM) *
^350 isn't any more than any of the other super hatches. Also imo the idea of a super hatch is stupid anyway, why anyone would spend £40K plus on a hatchback is beyond me.


It's not, but I expect AMG to turn it into a little beast. Also, I absolutely love superhatches/wagons/shooting brakes. They make sense to me.
350Z
^I don't think superhatches/wagons/shooting brakes are all in the same class to be honest. Wagons I normally prefer to their saloon counterparts and shooting brakes are so rare that I really haven't formed an opinion on them.

As for super hatches I see them as expensive to run and expensive to buy which are two things a hatch should never be. On top of that from what I have read they are not even that great to drive.
moe
I love the concept and aesthetic of superhatches so much. There's just so much awesomeness: Escort Cossie, Delta Integrale, newest STI, Clio V6, Ford SHOgun, 205 Turbo 16...I could go on.
350Z
Ok well if we consider vehicles on sale today then the only one is the STi and it doesn't make sense to me to spend that much more than the standard 300 Bhp car which is going to do all you need anyway.

Why buy a Focus RS 500 instead of a Focus RS?

Why buy an RS3 instead of an S3?

As far as I can see all these super hatches have going for them is exclusivity.
moe
The RS3 is a waste of space, and I agree. Then again, I think the regular S3 isn't impressive either.

The Focus RS500? Well, the "regular" RS is already a superhatch in my book, so why pay extra for the stupid matte paint, and useless extra ponies?

Also, totally forgot one of the most noteworthy recent supertaches...the Megane R26R
OHirtenfelder
The RS3 is a bloody fantastic vehicle to drive. Full stop. Whether people like it or not is up to them, but to call it a waste of space is just a dimwitted thing to say. Why buy it over the already fantastic S3...it's FUCKING QUICK!!! And it's exclusive. I hate the idea of making cars just to have a more exclusive model than the top of the ranger, but the Audi RS3 is a straight forward follow up to the S3. No useless exclusivity stuff there.

Also, hatches are incredibly practical. No one can argue that. Why should Joe Soap (with lots of money) have to compromise on that practicality when looking at buying a car. When he can have supersaloon performance and hatchback practicality.

To not like these cars in one thing, and everyone is entitled to their opinion on them, but to dismiss them as useless...not so clever.
350Z
QUOTE(moe @ Apr 18 2012, 08:32 PM) *
The RS3 is a waste of space, and I agree. Then again, I think the regular S3 isn't impressive either.

The Focus RS500? Well, the "regular" RS is already a superhatch in my book, so why pay extra for the stupid matte paint, and useless extra ponies?

Also, totally forgot one of the most noteworthy recent supertaches...the Megane R26R


Again the Megane R26R is a great car but why buy that one over the R26? Unless of course it's a second car.

QUOTE(OHirtenfelder @ Apr 18 2012, 08:57 PM) *
The RS3 is a bloody fantastic vehicle to drive. Full stop. Whether people like it or not is up to them, but to call it a waste of space is just a dimwitted thing to say. Why buy it over the already fantastic S3...it's FUCKING QUICK!!! And it's exclusive. I hate the idea of making cars just to have a more exclusive model than the top of the ranger, but the Audi RS3 is a straight forward follow up to the S3. No useless exclusivity stuff there.

Also, hatches are incredibly practical. No one can argue that. Why should Joe Soap (with lots of money) have to compromise on that practicality when looking at buying a car. When he can have supersaloon performance and hatchback practicality.

To not like these cars in one thing, and everyone is entitled to their opinion on them, but to dismiss them as useless...not so clever.


You say that but the only things you listed as advantages are that it's quick (well the regular S3 is hardly a slouch) and that it's exclusive which seems stupid for a hatchback.

If you want that engine why not buy a TT-RS?

If you want extra space why not buy an S4?

I just can't help but feel that the money is better spent on either of those.

* Just to make it clear I am in no way trying to argue opinions here, it's just nice to have a discussion on dieselstation again.
OHirtenfelder
The advantage of the superhatch is the package that it offers. It's not anything different to the regular car or the sportscar, it's the combination of the two. TT-RS + A3 = RS3. Practicality of the A3 with the speed of the TT. Yes the handling won't be quite there, but there is not such thing as a perfect vehicle. There will always be a compromise somewhere.

I'm all for discussions! My big gripe among the above comments was Moe dismissing the RS3 as a 'waste of space'. Considering the fact that Moe is a clued-up dude when it comes to cars, and I generally value his opinion on cars, that was one of the dumbest things I've ever heard said.
350Z
Well if it's the package you're after whats wrong with the S4 or S4 Avant.
OHirtenfelder
Several factors:

1) The S4 costs 100grand more than the RS3.

2) The RS3 is a lot faster than the S4.

3) The RS3 is far more exclusive than the S4, with only limited numbers coming into South Africa. As mentioned, I'm not big on the paying extra for exclusivity thing (if that's all you get for the extra money), but it appeals to lots of people. That might even be one of the biggest factors that leads people to buy these special cars, simply because they are not run of the mill.

4) They are different cars. Agreed, in terms of usage and practicality they are fairly similar (especially considering how estate-ey the A3 Sportback is), but they are different types of cars that appeal to different people.

Personally I'd have the S4 Avant with a manual gearbox. Sex on wheels that is.
350Z
Over here the S4 is cheaper than the RS3 although the price difference is negligable, map and exhaust on the S4 and its gonna keep up with an RS3.
speedyK
Some people may praise Bangle, but you can talk up his designs all you like, at the end of the day they may be striking in an, "Oh my God, what a hideous, chaotic jumble of contradictory, pointless lines" sort of way, but they are not classically beautiful. They lack the clean simplicity and sense of purpose that good design portrays.

If you are in doubt, you can re-calibrate your eyeballs below with a few coupés thumbs_up.gif

Bangle shambles:


Elegance



True BMW elegance





clarkma5
Yeah Bangle designs and everything modern looks good enough, but almost nothing is pretty in a timeless way anymore. Like I said, cars are becoming cartoon caricatures of their former selves.
OHirtenfelder
I think there are definitely cars that could be described as 'universally beautiful' such as perhaps the E-Type, or an Aston DB6, but there are definitely cars nowadays that are properly gorgeous to look at that won't keep that timeless beauty. I guess that's the thing with contemporary design, it lasts so long and then it's no longer contemporary.
There are definitely modern 'classics' that I think will keep their beauty for decades to come....



I guess there is something about a simple design (when done correctly) that holds its aesthetic much better and longer. Fussy, over complicated design lasts only so long.
moe
QUOTE(OHirtenfelder @ Apr 18 2012, 11:57 PM) *
The RS3 is a bloody fantastic vehicle to drive. Full stop. Whether people like it or not is up to them, but to call it a waste of space is just a dimwitted thing to say.


I'm sorry, but your fanboy is showing. The RS3 does nothing for me, like most Audis.

QUOTE(speedyK @ Apr 19 2012, 08:17 PM) *
Some people may praise Bangle, but you can talk up his designs all you like, at the end of the day they may be striking in an, "Oh my God, what a hideous, chaotic jumble of contradictory, pointless lines" sort of way, but they are not classically beautiful. They lack the clean simplicity and sense of purpose that good design portrays.

If you are in doubt, you can re-calibrate your eyeballs below with a few coupés thumbs_up.gif

Bangle shambles:


Elegance



True BMW elegance


The Z4 is hardly "Bangle shambles," I've always said, and will continue to argue that the roadster is a very pretty car, and the coupe is one of the most beautiful cars ever built.
OHirtenfelder
Moe, I'm not going to deny that I am a huge Audi fanboy.

I will tell you one thing, I drove both the RS3 and the 1M (the only real competitor to the RS3, in terms of pricing /power / and maybe potential customers) towards the end of last year. While driving the RS3 I was dicing and playing around with my editor who was in a 458. I'll tell you, real world driving, that RS3 held its own.

The 1M is far more fun to drive. Just the manual gearbox alone is a reason for the 1M over the RS3. I would choose the 1M any day of the week. If it came down to straight forward driver involvement and fun, 1M>RS3. If, however I had a family and stuff to lug around, etc. RS3 is the way forward. Yes, it's more of a compromise than the 1M, but it's still hugely capable.

And (not trying to sound like a dick) this has nothing to do with what you or I or anyone else LIKES. Fact is that the RS3 is a great car.
clarkma5
I think the Z4 M coupe is one of the few "flame surfaced" cars that has the chance of becoming a design classic in my eyes, heavily aided by its relative rarity and unique character.
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