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skr
QUOTE(dukenukem @ Sep 12 2011, 03:39 PM) *
All you really need is brakes and tires.


This is true.. I got a decent brake setup already. I just need to save money for a set of lightweight wheels to put worthy tires on. Let alone saving money for worthy tires.. lol
Kip_666
To be honest, I've only been doing slaloms for 18 months or so. Compared to other people in my class i'm seconds off, they've been doing it for years!
No brakes or tires will make up for that in my opinion (in my case) , sure it'll all help a bit but won't make up the difference. I still need several extra hours (hundreds probably) of experience to grasp the basics of it all.
But that doesn't matter, I'm having tons of fun, learning to control my car better,especially on the limit now. Those are the main reasons why i do it.

I've done several in my Saab(s) too, and if you want a car which is the exact opposite of what works you use one of those. smile.gif
But even then it was loads of fun and I'm going to repeat myself now; I've learned a bit of how the cars work in those situations.

The slaloms i do, like in my videos are still pretty light on brakes and tires compared to proper track days.
It's also several factors safer than normal track days (for you and the car).
dukenukem
QUOTE(Kip_666 @ Sep 14 2011, 10:55 AM) *
To be honest, I've only been doing slaloms for 18 months or so. Compared to other people in my class i'm seconds off, they've been doing it for years!
No brakes or tires will make up for that in my opinion (in my case) , sure it'll all help a bit but won't make up the difference. I still need several extra hours (hundreds probably) of experience to grasp the basics of it all.
But that doesn't matter, I'm having tons of fun, learning to control my car better,especially on the limit now. Those are the main reasons why i do it.

I've done several in my Saab(s) too, and if you want a car which is the exact opposite of what works you use one of those. smile.gif
But even then it was loads of fun and I'm going to repeat myself now; I've learned a bit of how the cars work in those situations.

The slaloms i do, like in my videos are still pretty light on brakes and tires compared to proper track days.
It's also several factors safer than normal track days (for you and the car).


I was talking about road racing. You need tires because even the best all season tire is going to give up and die after about 20mins of track abuse. Same goes for MOST standard brake pads. I know experience and talent trumps all but there is not much talent can do when your brake pads have completely disintegrated due to overheating 15 mins into the first run.

My normal suggestion and practice for track days is decent summer tires (say tread rating of <=300) and GOOD DOT 4 fluid (ATE Super Blue) and decent pads (Hawk HPS/ similar).
Altostratus
and a good wheel sealant.
because hawk hps pads puke brake dust everywhere.
Razor
Ceramic pads are bad, I'm guessing?
dukenukem
QUOTE(Altostratus @ Sep 15 2011, 11:13 AM) *
and a good wheel sealant.
because hawk hps pads puke brake dust everywhere.


that's why I use and personally recommend Ferodo DS2500. They are comparable to Hawk HP+ but are perfectly daily drivable in all conditions.

QUOTE(Razor @ Sep 15 2011, 01:23 PM) *
Ceramic pads are bad, I'm guessing?

They are good for daily drivers and if you don't want to see too much brake dust. I don't know of many ceramic pads that can handle track days.
Altostratus
my old LS had akebono street performance pads on all four corners, with some shitty crossdrilled rotors and motul dot 5.1 in the system and it would still experience fade under spirited drives.

but i suspect the culprit was the brembo china knockoff rotors.
dukenukem
QUOTE(Altostratus @ Sep 16 2011, 07:48 AM) *
my old LS had akebono street performance pads on all four corners, with some shitty crossdrilled rotors and motul dot 5.1 in the system and it would still experience fade under spirited drives.

but i suspect the culprit was the brembo china knockoff rotors.

Too much weight for the pads to deal with would be my guess.
shandyman5
Pagid brake pads, and super blue.... end thread.
dukenukem
QUOTE(shandyman5 @ Sep 16 2011, 12:11 PM) *
Pagid brake pads, and super blue.... end thread.

Yes. Everyone looovvvveeeessss their car sounding like they are dragging an anchor every time you take your foot near the brake pedal.
shandyman5
Not the case for Pagid yellow's and for people who actually know how to properly seat brake pads to their rotor. Besides, no brake is more fade free.
misnblu
Pretty awesome fun you got there. Good to see you learning the car and driving it as it should be, hard.
I've enjoyed this thread with all the videos and keep them coming.
dukenukem
QUOTE(shandyman5 @ Sep 17 2011, 01:41 PM) *
Not the case for Pagid yellow's and for people who actually know how to properly seat brake pads to their rotor. Besides, no brake is more fade free.

That's not the general opinion on Yellows i have heard. OH well.
shandyman5
QUOTE(dukenukem @ Sep 17 2011, 11:01 PM) *
That's not the general opinion on Yellows i have heard. OH well.


Perhaps it is the application? Not sure, I do know a lot of people do not know how to break brake pads in right so that maybe why. Quiet as OEM pads over here.
Altostratus
pagid are dust assholes aswell.

all of them.
shandyman5
QUOTE(Altostratus @ Sep 18 2011, 01:25 AM) *
pagid are dust assholes aswell.

all of them.


You still doing drugs?
Altostratus
never. and i would know, i wash about 1000 more cars a week than you do.
shandyman5
QUOTE(Altostratus @ Sep 19 2011, 04:04 PM) *
never. and i would know, i wash about 1000 more cars a week than you do.


Cool story brah. Raspberry.gif (Just busting your balls)

I have met hundreds of people at the track who run Pagid's, and I regularly hang around an ALMS team who run Pagid's as well..... Dust issues are nothing compared to OEM pads from BMW or Porsche. The ALMS Porsche can go through a whole day of track practice at Road Atlanta and have less dust then a stock M3 or 911.
dukenukem
I think I am going to move all the brake pad talk to another thread just so we don't derail this one and actually share some useful info with others.
shandyman5
QUOTE(dukenukem @ Sep 19 2011, 05:01 PM) *
I think I am going to move all the brake pad talk to another thread just so we don't derail this one and actually share some useful info with others.


Actually, I agree we should do that Duke.
dukenukem
Done. Everyone now can share good info about what brands they like and other technical info about braking systems on cars.
fiber optic
QUOTE(Altostratus @ Sep 15 2011, 11:13 AM) *
and a good wheel sealant.
because hawk hps pads puke brake dust everywhere.


I've got the HPS pads on the front of my truck and that has not been my experience. Although I don't do any competitive driving and I'm pretty easy on brakes in general.
dukenukem
QUOTE(fiber optic @ Sep 20 2011, 01:46 PM) *
I've got the HPS pads on the front of my truck and that has not been my experience. Although I don't do any competitive driving and I'm pretty easy on brakes in general.

The couple of cars I know that are running HPS do have a decent amount of dusting on them though its much less than my Ferodos. The shitty part is the orange dust is a massive pain in the ass to get off the wheels.
skr
I run HPS with DBA slotted rotors. It's a very good street setup, and for the amount of mileage I put on my Integra, the brake dust isn't that bad. I don't think it was any worse than the vatozone pads I had from the previous owner.
shandyman5
Porsche-

At the track, we ran the stock 4-pot Brembo's all around with factory rotors and pads. If me and my dad ran back to back we would get some brake fade that got progressively worse throughout the second session of back to back. We also could never engage the ABS, during a track session, once the tires were warmed up.

Once we installed Pagid yellow's in the front and rear and flushed with ATE super blue (stock rotors), both of our lap times dropped by well over five seconds at the 'Glen. We could push the shit out of the pedal and get ABS engagement every time on track. Huge difference and awesome brakes.

We never had terrible brake dust on the wheels but it was there... (this is the number one pad used by Porsche club owners and LeMans teams btw....)

The biggest negative is that the drills in the rotors would get caked and crudded after a day of track use which never happened terribly with the stock pads.

I highly recommend them, for anyone that can switch out brake pads during race weekend. In the case of the Pagid Yellow's when broken in properly they never squeal, unless completely cold in the morning. When not really warmed up the worst they sound could be compared to a car that actually sounds like a car that has no brake pad left (no squeal but a low grinding growl). Once heat is in them they are completely quiet.


Mustang-

I have never taken it to the track, but have done some 7-8/10ths driving with it on mountain roads by my college.... The car has been flushed with fresh Dot 3 and has Powerstop pads, with Chinese rotors. After having eyeball popping braking understanding with driving the 911 at the track, I know the concept of braking HARD!

With this setup... forget it. The mountain road we "race up" is 4.5 miles long, and I am almost to the floor faded at the end of the first mile. With my upgrade to a Cobra coming soon, everyone says to get seat time in it before I swap the brakes out on it (Cobra brakes are and inch bigger all around and vented in the rear as opposed to the GT's solid rear rotors..) But, if I make it into a track car, and expect to keep up with Porsche's, M3's and Corvette's I know I will rape the shit out of the stock PBR caliper's so I will be upgrading to a full front Brembo big brake kit.
MustangAficionado
Brakes are the one thing on my build undecided still, guess it'll depend on budget.
dukenukem
QUOTE(MustangAficionado @ Sep 20 2011, 10:39 PM) *
Brakes are the one thing on my build undecided still, guess it'll depend on budget.

http://www.apracing.com/info/products.asp?...2F%3E_2762_2570

dukenukem
So this is a summary of my experience driving the STI on the street and track for the past 5 years

First track day: (Stock pads and fluid)
Drove the STI bone stock on the track for the first time. The brake pads and fluids were all factory original. It was a fairly warm Texas summer day and the brakes held up OK initially but once I slowly started gathering speed the brake fade set in. It was not catastrophic but you could easily tell the system had been pushed to its limits. The stock STI pads are aggressive street performance pads that can handle autocross but most certainly out of their elements on any HPDE events.

Second track day: (Stock pads, Valvoline Synthetic DOT4 fluid, SS brake lines)
This time around I had installed Goodridge SS brake lines and flushed the fluid with the old Valvoline Synthetic brake fluid. I also had swaybars and lowering springs on the car. The SS lines dont do shit for your pedal feel on the street but depending on the application, the pedal feel under hard braking (100+mph to 40) is improved some what. I was still on stock pads and this time around the weak link in the braking system was more apparent. The pads would do fine for first 5 mins of the session and then start to give up after that. After the 2nd event I had pretty much killed them.


Current setup: (ATE Super blue, Ferodo DS2500, SS lines)
After much research I decided to pick up Ferodo DS2500 pads. These are not the most popular pads in the STI world but seem to be more liked by the EVO guys who have essentially the same Brembo setup. These are aggressive street/ light track pads. They are on par with Hawk HP+ in performance but with streetability of Hawk HPS. These pads dust the same as stock STI pads but the dust comes of very easily with soap and water. I have had these pads for close to 35k miles and they have another 20k miles worth of life left in them. This is after a season of autocross and 3 track days. I guess I am just very easy on my brakes. Since Valvoline stopped making their awesome brake fluid and replaced it with much shitter DOT4 stuff, I was forced to switch to the more expensive ATE Super Blue. For the next 2 runs, my car was a stage 2 sti with swaybars and lowering springs. I was still running in the novice group and though I was picking up pace, it was not enough to boil the fluid or overheat the pads. The braking performance of the DS2500 is very very good. They are easy to modulate and have great initial bite. Also, once you bed them in, they are virtually silent on the street except under very light pedal when you are creeping along in traffic in the cold. On a cold day, it will take a stop or 2 for them to warm up but then they are at operating temp and work like any other street pad.

On the last track event, I was running in the intermediate group with midnightdorifto in 100+ summer heat. The average pace around the track was much higher than before and the pads still worked just fine till the last couple of sessions when the brake fluid which was year and half old started to boil. The pedal was beginning to get mushy but the braking peformance was still good. Even my instructor was impressed with the brembo's performance that day.

In short, if you are willing to spend some money, the Ferodos are great street/ track pads that you can use all year round and wont destroy your rotors.

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