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Grantzphoto
Currently I'm using a suction cup rig I made from:

x3 5' Aluminum concrete smoothing poles

x2 Avenger suction cups

x3 Manfrotto Super Clamps

x1 Manfrotto Magic Arm

The poles I'm using bend slightly and bounce while moving. Its fairly thin walled aluminum so idk if the deflection to weight ratio is in my favor.


I'm looking to make this rig more stable but having trouble trying to triangulate something that attaches from the top of the car. My thoughts are to run a cable from the camera to a clamp or suction cup on the bottom of the car but I'm afraid that the tension that creates might pull off the suction cups.

Seethegrim
Add a suspension wire over the top, almost on the drawbridge concept.
Costas
I had a similar problem. I added the steel wire over the top which did prevent a bit of the bounce, but definitely didn't get anywhere near eliminating it. After doing some research.. the biggest factor in determining how stable it is are the poles diameter and wall thickness. 2" diameter is the norm (mine are 1.5), and the thicker the wall the less it will flex. To reduce the flex completely, look into poles that have internal stiffening ribs. They seem hard to locate though as I haven't found any for sale here locally, but they look like this http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/sh...ad.php?t=151730
Seethegrim
QUOTE(Costas @ Nov 4 2009, 08:27 PM) *
To reduce the flex completely, look into poles that have internal stiffening ribs. They seem hard to locate though as I haven't found any for sale here locally, but they look like this http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/sh...ad.php?t=151730


Oooooh, that looks promising.
JC_PHOTGRAPHY
where can i buy a complete setup ?
-JR-
I wanted to build my own, but well I got not enouh time and money!
Anyway, I've found these forums where there are loads of interesting advices for building/using Rigs:
Canon Photography Forum/ Rigs
JDM forum/ build your own Rig
mackey
IMO, don't use magnets, first, they don't hold sturdy enough, and two, they won't attach to composite materials (IE, high end cars that have little to no metal on the bottom)...

Go with 2-3 suction cups, the best idea it to make a cross at the suction point. one on the end, with a bar that crosses the main pole with two on each side... wire's are good, but are often a pain in the ass to setup good.

15ft is about where a rig will start to bounce and flex a lot, keep the sections small and tight 3-4ft max.
Konrad Janicki
how do you connect segments of the pole ?
mackey
QUOTE(Konrad Janicki @ Jan 25 2010, 12:19 PM) *
how do you connect segments of the pole ?


there are different way, sleeves, couplers, screws, Mike Bowen uses a slightly bigger coupler that the poles screw into on each side. The automotive rigs poles use a slightly bigger end piece thats welded on that you screw down with a loop wire thing (escaping my head the name of them)...
supafly
will the suction cup leave marks on car paint? can somebody post after shoots photo?

thnx
Mr.D
Every suction cup will leave a mark. There is no way of escaping the horror...
Just tell the car owner not to do anything until he gets home and wash the car, followed by drying.
Inspect with a fluorescent light to see if the ring is visible and decide whether to polish or rub with microfibre or an angry cat on the paint...
supafly
thanks any other tips? some say the worst it maybe cracking the paint?
Nate047
I just ordered a roll of 6" x 84" 3M clear bra to try to eliminate the marks left by the suction cups. I will report back as soon as, well, I have something to report Raspberry.gif

QUOTE(Costas @ Nov 4 2009, 10:27 AM) *
look into poles that have internal stiffening ribs. They seem hard to locate though as I haven't found any for sale here locally, but they look like this http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/sh...ad.php?t=151730


Interesting... anyone know what these poles are traditionally used for, or where they could be found? looks like a good concept thumbs_up.gif
Mr.D
QUOTE(Nate047 @ Feb 6 2010, 12:30 AM) *
I just ordered a roll of 6" x 84" 3M clear bra to try to eliminate the marks left by the suction cups.


Sorry, but I don't see the point with that. You will only mess up the suction. It's the outer ring that leave marks and you can't mount the cup on a bra.
Nate047
I know a few guys who do this, and apparently it helps especially if the car has less than perfect paint... i.e a track car, the clear bra makes a smooth surface that the cup can stick to. either way, if it doesn't work I'm out less than $30 so I'm not losing any sleep over it

edit: to clarify, this is the clear plastic "bra" that's like a film, not a traditional leather/pleather black "bra"

http://www.clearbrapro.com/
supafly
thanks for sharing, i think that clear bra will work. keep us posted
Chebs
I once stuck a suction cup to a clear bra on a 997 turbo. It completely fecked the bra up and all the paint protection film had to be removed.

NEVER will I be doing that again, cost a fair amount of money that mistake.
Nate047
interesting, well I got the package yesterday so I'm going to give it a shot next time and if it doesn't work out, no harm no foul whistle.gif
paddymcgrath
I've always asked / told clients not to polish their cars before a shoot if I'm using the rig as the cups just suck through the polish to the paint which leaves the rings. Whilst they do buff out it's a PITA and looks rough afterwards. Never left a mark on paint before and hopefully won't be either ! I do clean the cups with baby wipes before hand though as well which helps.
StE823
in my opinion, that look pretty sturdy to me.. my rigsetup is similar without using a cable too.
as long you are not going very fast, i think its stable enough to get a sharp shot (pushing or rolling on a slope)
Bots' Revenge
I've been using some car wax to remove the marks on the paint. They always come off after ~10 seconds of rubbing. At times people mistake it for a car polish which is abrasive and scratches the paint. The wax isn't abrasive.

About the stability - my rig is made of three pieces 1.5m (5') long which connect to each other via short pieces of the same pipes, split longwise. That definitely weakens the construction, so I've added steel wire and made the rig like a suspension bridge. Because I've made the wire quite tight, it removes a significant amount of the vertical movement. I also attach some rope to the rig that prevents some of the horizontal movement.
This way I get some sharp images even with the engine running.
Nate047
got any pix of the "suspension bridge" setup in action?
mike bowen
i'll look when i get home, i know i have some setup shots somewhere of the ol' rig. here is one i found on my work lappy.

basically i have 20' of aluminum rigid conduit. i cut one piece in half so i have a 10' and 2 5'... me and josh usually just use one 10' and a 5' and its usually enough distance. connected with just a small aluminum coupler. really simple to setup, just need a couple of pipe wrenches.

Jag_Imaging
Nice! I have my version 2.0 of my rig almost ready to go..going from a 8 ish foot pole ( 3 parts ) with 4.5" suction cups to a 20 foot pole cut into 4 5foot part with 6" cups..My problem is trying to figure out how to connect the poles together and have it solid..I dont know what to use to couple them together.. either get the ends threaded..or use smaller pipe as a coupler..not sure what would work best..
mike bowen
i've been through a few iterations and i will say its all about weight weight weight. make it as simple as possible and use aluminum only.

get the ends threaded and use aluminum couplers
VisualEchos
My rig consists of the following common parts that can all be purchased from Adorama:

(1) BG2930 - Manfrotto Magic Arm w/Camera platform: $99.95
(3) BG2900 - Manfrotto Super Clamp w/ " stud: $26.99
(2) AEF1000 - Manfrotto Avenger Suction Cup w/ 5/8 stud: $55.95
(1) BW77ND8X - B+W .9 ND filter: $99.95

And one that can't, which is my proprietary boom. If you need a boom, let me know, as there is no better product on the market for the money. Price is $165 shipped anywhere in the contiguous USA.

Like others have stated, polishing or waxing the spots where you intend on using the suction cups is the way to go, I've done 15+ cars this way (including my own Lotus, which is quite fragile) with no damage to report.

Also, instead of having someone push, try parking on an incline and just releasing the brake. This technique will many times produce no bounce at all, and give you crystal clear images.

Nate047
would you mind explaining why your boom is so much better than anything else? rolleyes.gif
VisualEchos
QUOTE(Nate047 @ Apr 6 2010, 12:08 PM) *
would you mind explaining why your boom is so much better than anything else? rolleyes.gif


No need for the attitude Nate, I was only saying that for the money, my boom is the best out there, and if I find something better, I'll start producing it.
Nate047
it was a serious question... I'd like to see what you've got going on for that price. got pix/description?
VisualEchos
For that price? You make it sound expensive. My boom costs less than a quality CP filter. Below are the specifics that I give out.

Pipe material: aluminum
Total # of sections: 3
Individual section length: 55"
Assembly type: threaded pipe/couplers
Total # of couplers: 2
Total assembled length: 14'
Total assembled weight: 12.4 lbs

The pipe length is matched specifically with the type of aluminum I use (which I don't share because it's proprietary) to ensure the most rigidity with the least amount of weight.
JustinCesler
Any pictures of this "super boom"?

I am making the switch to Carbon soon - but if yours has 'no flex' I would be interested...
john jovic
QUOTE(VisualEchos @ Apr 7 2010, 09:40 AM) *
The pipe length is matched specifically with the type of aluminum I use (which I don't share because it's proprietary) to ensure the most rigidity with the least amount of weight.



Wow. You guys are still keeping secrets. It never ceases to amaze me.

There are only a few grades to consider so why is it a big deal anyway?

7075, 2024 and 6xxx are essentially all you will ever consider. 7075 is best, 2024 is almost as good and the rest really doesn't matter. The weight of the grades is so similar it barely matters but their tensile strength varies greatly.

6061 is a commonly available grade that's better than the run of the mill junk (6060) and there are variations on this used for extrusions (because they extrude better, not 'cos they are stronger).

Or do what Easton does and photoshop the crap out of everything so he might use a piece of bamboo or toilet rolls taped together for all any one cares.

JJ
VisualEchos
QUOTE(JustinCesler @ Apr 6 2010, 05:46 PM) *
Any pictures of this "super boom"?

I am making the switch to Carbon soon - but if yours has 'no flex' I would be interested...


Man, you guys have a hard time reading. I never said it didn't bounce, EVERY BOOM BOUNCES, nor did I say it was a super boom, I simply said it's the best for the money. Can you make it yourself for less than I sell them for? Sure. And to that end, go ahead...

QUOTE(john jovic @ Apr 6 2010, 07:38 PM) *
Wow. You guys are still keeping secrets. It never ceases to amaze me.


Sounds to me like you already know everything about aluminum piping, so no secrets from you smile.gif.

This is why I don't come here often; ATTITUDE.
duality
blah rig blah...all i know is that your exige photos are awesome...so, don't leave lol.
mackey
12ft isn't long enough. 15ft minimum for me.
john jovic
QUOTE(VisualEchos @ Apr 7 2010, 11:51 AM) *
Sounds to me like you already know everything about aluminum piping, so no secrets from you smile.gif.


I know sweet FA about aluminium that you can't easilly find out in the interweb.

QUOTE(VisualEchos @ Apr 7 2010, 11:51 AM) *
This is why I don't come here often; ATTITUDE.


Yeah, I agree. I've had a problem with the attitude here for some time. I always thought forums were places to share information and learn things from similarly minded folks. Most forums are actually like that. DS has a history of members being very secretive about things, you all know who you are. How often are technical questions quietly ignored, so as not to be noticed? Without really sharing then it's nothing more than advertising or self promotion. I suppose that's OK if that's all you expect, which I suppose I don't. I suppose that's my problem. Warren Buffett (Google him) once said that the secret to a long marriage was 'to have low expectations'. Maybe I expect too much.

Maybe the DS photo section should just be renamed to IKSYDK.com (I_Know_Something_You_Dont_Know.com) then everyone can at least be up front about not sharing.

JJ
VisualEchos
QUOTE(duality @ Apr 6 2010, 09:01 PM) *
blah rig blah...all i know is that your exige photos are awesome...so, don't leave lol.


Thanks, but I'm pretty much done posting my pix here, there really isn't any need. Anytime I post a thread there's 500 views and 3 replies. What's the point?

QUOTE(mackey @ Apr 6 2010, 09:31 PM) *
12ft isn't long enough. 15ft minimum for me.


It's a little over 14' with the couplers. Armin uses my boom if you want to check it out, but I'm sure you've got a great rig already.

QUOTE(john jovic @ Apr 6 2010, 10:05 PM) *
Yeah, I agree. I've had a problem with the attitude here for some time. DS has a history of members being very secretive about things, you all know who you are.


That's exactly the feeling I've gotten here, so I only come on every so often, and when I do it's just to catch up on a few of my favorite photographers I don't see elsewhere. I mean, no one ever wants to share with me, so why should I share with them, especially the technical specs of a product I'm SELLING. AFAIC, I've already shared too much.
RaymondN
I use Mr. VisualEchos boom and love it. Hasn't failed me yet. Of course it bounces, but never enough to create an issue with sharpness or anything.











And I priced out similar set-ups locally at metal supply places, which were hard enough to find in the first place, and most were over $200, so yeah, it may not be a "super boom," but I think it's pretty damn good, along with being plenty affordable.
Mr.D
I paid $80 for my 20 ft (when its mounted, prob 24 ft unmounted) and it's 12lbs and even with my support system it's 16.5lbs.
Have no idea what grade it is but the support system was more expensive to make.
Metal suppliers are not fun to deal with =)
VisualEchos
QUOTE(RaymondN @ Apr 6 2010, 10:49 PM) *
I use Mr. VisualEchos boom and love it. Hasn't failed me yet. Of course it bounces, but never enough to create an issue with sharpness or anything.

And I priced out similar set-ups locally at metal supply places, which were hard enough to find in the first place, and most were over $200, so yeah, it may not be a "super boom," but I think it's pretty damn good, along with being plenty affordable.


Thanks man, and the pix look awesome!
AmuseGT1
really cool thread with good info here, normally I attach the rig then take 1 picture to get the car crisp and in focus, then a rolling shot for the wheels and the background, then composite them in photoshop. However, I'am trying to find a way to extend my pole to get more of the scene in the shot, this thread has brought some new ideas to life thumbs_up.gif
mackey
Oh so Armin bought your system? for a second I thought you moved out here! LOL

That's cool.

I might have to compare yours to Mike's. I'm so broke right now otherwise I might put something together.
VisualEchos
Tell me about it, that damn 200/2 killed my plans for absolutely everything, even mods for my car!
JustinCesler
Something warms my heart about a speech on "not sharing information" coming from a guy who just said "And one that can't, which is my proprietary boom" in a thread about that very subject.

Perhaps no one "shares secret information" because this is a highly, highly competitive field and this tiny forum happens to be home to some of the best (and most competitive) in the industry. If you go on a "I love my dog" forum, plenty of people will tell you "tips and tricks" for training them...if you go on the "top breaders of highly skilled national show dogs" forum I would guess the "sharing" would be kept to a minimum - they respect each others work and respect the privacy and innovation that goes into being a top performer.

Look, most of my friends are photographers (since this is my full time gig), but we all know when someone isn't going to give up the beans. It's just the nature of the beast, tread lightly and watch them work, if you do it for long enough, you can start to learn how to grow.
VisualEchos
Cry me a river Justin.
Blue Devil
look guys... it's simple... share as much as you want.. no one can make you do anything... if you are the given type then by all means.. share with us.... if not then fine... this group has gotten along (or not) for a long ass time. Rigs are nothing out of the ordinary in this forum (i still have to try it myself) and it just a matter for putting the stuff together...

you are NOT expected to give out your own techniques... this is a very competitive industry... and that's just the way things are...


now.. back to talk about rigs... tard.gif
JustinCesler
QUOTE(VisualEchos @ Apr 7 2010, 09:11 PM) *
Cry me a river Justin.


No tears here... just telling it like it is.

On topic - Does anyone know of any carbon sources? A friend of mine does but he is currently overseas on a vacation... I would like to explore some options, my aluminum rig is just to bouncy at 14' for me to get what I need, every time.
john jovic
QUOTE(JustinCesler @ Apr 8 2010, 12:26 PM) *
No tears here... just telling it like it is.

On topic - Does anyone know of any carbon sources? A friend of mine does but he is currently overseas on a vacation... I would like to explore some options, my aluminum rig is just to bouncy at 14' for me to get what I need, every time.


Saw this a while ago, not sure if it's any good.

http://www.carbonfibertubeshop.com/large%20tubing.html

JJ
mackey
PM Orlando Ech for Carbon stuff, his is carbon now.

As for sharing secrets.. there aren't too many left now, if you can't find the answers via google, this forum, or another source, you're not looking hard enough.
JustinCesler
John - nice link, I sent them an email this afternoon.

Josh, thanks, I will shoot him a PM if this other place doesn't pan out.
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