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Phix
QUOTE
My older brother Brian drives a Scion xD. He's 39 years old, and probably considered anything but cool by 18-24 year-old standards. He bought his little xD because he was tired of filling up his AWD 2001 Chevy Astro conversion van, and he's gone from getting 12 mpg to about 30. While that's a big-time win for Scion sales, the brand's marketing arm has to cringe. Scion was built to be Toyota's youth-oriented brand, with cars that would finally bring younger buyers into the Toyota showroom. The early days of Scion were a boon, with 80% of Scion buyers having never shopped Toyota before. Young people were clamoring for the xB and tC, and 100-200k online shoppers flocked to the Scion site each month.

Only a year after the redesign of the xB and xD, the Scion site is seeing less than half the traffic. Overall, year over year sales fell for 17 strait months until March, when gas prices skyrocketed. Even then, sales were back down by June, which was the peak of high fuel prices. The problems began to surface when the redesigned Scions were little more than larger versions of their former selves. A larger xB became more attractive to the mother of two, while losing some of the edginess that made it a smash hit with teens and early-20-somethings.

Scion's leadership would like to turn the tide by creating a fourth member of the Scion family that exudes cool for under $20k. It could be an SUV or a hybrid, but Scion execs want it to be free from the grasps of the parent company. The current models also have to be refocused to once again attract the coveted 18-30 crowd. That's a tall order, and a lot of work for a brand that's only five years old.


http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/04/scion-s...age-is-in-flux/

All I can say is... GOOD! But, the fact that speculation comes down to a hybrid or an SUV... would just mean that they'd end up attracting more people outside of 18 to 30 bracket again. More soccer moms. What kind of stupid logic is that?
Diesel
i honestly don't know what your hatred for Scion comes from. They're great decent cars that are quirky and cheap and have their own style. They're reliable, and the company takes care of their customers. If that's a bad thing, then whatever, hate on brother.
clarkma5
It's tricky to appeal to the non-enthusiast 18-24 year old market...they demand something practical and tidily-sized because they can only afford one car and they're less likely to find a large model appealing. However, practical and tidily-sized is what sells to the older crowd, too, especially now that gas prices are higher. The difference comes down to the detailing, though we've seen that even youthisizing a dowdy, practical car (like the Fit or the xA/xB) fails to turn away the old folks. They can see through the bullcrap.
Mitlov
My mom just bought a Scion xD. My mom is 61 years old.
eraser_rx
my dad, 58 yrs old, wants a Fit
Dr. Strangelove
Don't they understand that the public wants more stuff like the tC?
clarkma5
The tC is unequivocally their "youngest" model in terms of who is buying it. I think it's also had steadier sales numbers than the 4-door cars, too, which tend to decline steeply a couple years after they're fresh on the market (which, btw, is totally bassackwards in the car world. Also, I'm not 100% sure if that's true but I remember reading it somewhere).
RIDEwithG
I think the tC is due for a redesign. I never really like the xB box-on-wheels styling. I did consider getting my wife the tC at one point, but never made it to the dealership. The Mazda3, at the time, was too much fun for the wife to pass up. When I think Toyota, I think family cars, so they really need to put in a bit of effort designing "trendier cars".
clarkma5
The Scion tC is, IMO, the best car that Toyota makes right now, but that really doesn't mean much. It's mid-pack in its segment for sure.
moe
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Aug 6 2008, 02:27 AM) *
The Scion tC is, IMO, the best car that Toyota makes right now, but that really doesn't mean much. It's mid-pack in its segment for sure.


Are you saying Toyota doesn't have a very strong range right now? Because if you are, even as someone who hates the "appliance-ness" of Toyotas, I'd have to disagree. Most of their cars can stand direct comparison to the segment leaders, and the ones that can't are due for replacement anyway.
clarkma5
Yes, I am saying that Toyota does not have a strong range right now, at least in the US. Toyota's mainstream models are slipping in quality and are being left in the dust dynamically by their rivals (check out the comparison tests of the latest Camry, the 2009 Corolla, etc....the journos aren't saying anything too nice about them and I have to agree with their assessments based on my exposure to these vehicles). Toyota has a strong truck/SUV lineup but that's not a very good place to be right now in terms of fuel efficiency and it's also not a good place to be in terms of attracting people who like, ya know, cars.

Lexii feel nicer and look nicer but they're competing in a segment where you have to go beyond the basics and, once again, they're a step behind the competition dynamically. Even the non-sport models like the ES are up against strong competition from Hyundai, Acura, even Volvo. And when it comes to Scion's 4-door models...well, we can see what this thread is about. Old people are buying them because they're dull.

So, due to its combination of style (it's an attractive car), sportiness (ain't half-bad to drive), practicality (it's got 4 decent seats and a good-sized hatch and gets good mileage, plus it's reliable), youthfulness (again, one of the youngest cars Toyota sells), and low price (it's way cheaper than more serious sport compacts), combined with some unique features (people love the full glass roof and easily moddable sound system) make me say that the tC is the best car that Toyota sells in the US.
moe
I dunno. I think while the Camry, Corolla/Matrix, IS, and GS are all mid-pack. The rest of the line-up is up there with the best. That would include the Avalon, Yaris, Lexus LS, and ES.

The Avalon and ES would have the big, soft full-size segment covered if it weren't for the arrival of the Genesis. The G8 and Maxima are too sporty to be true rivals in my book, and the Charger/300C fall flat on their faces in terms of build-quality.

The LS is one of the strongest players in its segment. As an all-rounder, I'd say only the S-class has its measure.

The Yaris is one of the best superminis on sale...anywhere.
clarkma5
The Yaris is consistently considered cheaper and tinnier than its main rivals, the Honda Fit and the Nissan Versa. The arrival of the 4-door hatch may help that here but it's hardly the best supermini you can get in that rapidly growing segment. The ES is an overstuffed Camry, and the Avalon is an old man car with a pretty niche appeal. As for the LS...most buyers want european feel in their super-luxury sedans. The LS is pretty cold.
moe
I'm not entirely sure why the US press didn't receive the Yaris that well, I personally think it's a lot better than the Versa, and at least the equal of the Fit. I really do believe the Yaris is one of the best of its kind, even here in the ME, where the French competition is available.

Avalon and ES's market may be niche, but they're still solid products.

As for the LS...well it leaves me cold too (I'd take the Quattroporte or the XJ here, but those are hardly logical choices), but I was trying to factor my emotions out of my evaluation of current Toyotas. Otherwise I'd hate pretty much all of their washing machines...I mean cars.
clarkma5
QUOTE(moethepaki @ Aug 5 2008, 06:40 PM) *
As for the LS...well it leaves me cold too (I'd take the Quattroporte or the XJ here, but those are hardly logical choices), but I was trying to factor my emotions out of my evaluation of current Toyotas. Otherwise I'd hate pretty much all of their washing machines...I mean cars.


Well, that's what I mean. Toyota can get away with selling white goods (and they do, even though their white goods are falling behind the quality of others') but Lexus has to compete in the luxury realm, where something resembling character is a must, not an option. Yeah there are some beautifully engineered Lexus products (in fact, they pretty much all are), but none of them get people excited. At least, not significantly compared to their competition.
moe
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Aug 6 2008, 04:58 AM) *
Well, that's what I mean. Toyota can get away with selling white goods (and they do, even though their white goods are falling behind the quality of others') but Lexus has to compete in the luxury realm, where something resembling character is a must, not an option. Yeah there are some beautifully engineered Lexus products (in fact, they pretty much all are), but none of them get people excited. At least, not significantly compared to their competition.


The LS is the only proper Lexus that suffers from "overgrown Camry" syndrome. I think you'll remember that I've been smitten by the GS, and could buy it on styling alone. I don't find the IS much of a white good either. At it's launch, it was pretty sharp dynamically, and still looks great. So I think a few Lexii do have character.

I also think character isn't necessarily a prerequisite for the luxury sector. I mean look at Audi, for years they've been making cars that I've thought were utterly soulless. The TT (both generations) and RS4 are notable exceptions to that rule. My friend has quite aptly labeled them, the "Japanese Lexus."
Mitlov
QUOTE(moethepaki @ Aug 6 2008, 06:00 AM) *
The LS is the only proper Lexus that suffers from "overgrown Camry" syndrome. I think you'll remember that I've been smitten by the GS, and could buy it on styling alone. I don't find the IS much of a white good either. At it's launch, it was pretty sharp dynamically, and still looks great. So I think a few Lexii do have character.


The Lexus IS250 X-Package I test-drove was a remarkably good overall, very sharp-handling, and very engaging to drive. A used IS is high on my list of next cars--particularly if I tire of dealing with Teutonic maintenance costs. I thought it was a better overall package than the 2006 325i I drove (nearly as dynamically sharp, and twice as nice to be in), and better in nearly every way than the 2008 C300 (the Merc's only advantages over the Lexus were a roomier cabin and a brilliant sound system).

And if we're talking about what Toyotas are good in their segment, I can't help but mention the 2006+ RAV4, which IMO is by far the best cute ute on the market. Refined, comfortable, remarkably large inside and with remarkable fuel economy. What more could you want from a small crossover? And the Prius, as annoying as its drivers are, is absolutely brilliant for non-enthusiasts who do primarily city driving.
moe
Clark and I've already established that Toyota has a very strong line-up of trucks and SUVs. So that's why we haven't listed the RAV4.

I don't count hybrids are a market segment. So I haven't bothered with the Prius.
Mitlov
QUOTE(moethepaki @ Aug 6 2008, 12:33 PM) *
Clark and I've already established that Toyota has a very strong line-up of trucks and SUVs. So that's why we haven't listed the RAV4.


When people say "trucks and SUVs," I think of trucks and truck-based SUVs, not crossovers.

QUOTE
I don't count hybrids are a market segment. So I haven't bothered with the Prius.


Call it a family car then. Compare it to more traditional-shaped sedans which are boring to drive, cost in the mid-$20s (US), and are designed to cart four adults and some luggage around town. It looks different on the surface, but functionally, it does a very nice job of replacing a four-cylinder midsize family sedan.

Finally, I've read pretty good reviews of the new Corolla. The old generation was REALLY long in the tooth, and it showed. But my understanding is that the new one is a huge step up in refinement, while still offering class-leading fuel economy (or close to it, haven't looked up the numbers).
moe
If the Prius is a midsize, it has to bear comparison to the Accord, Passat, new Mazda6, Altima, etc...all cars which do pretty much everything better than a Prius.

The problem with the Corolla for me is it gets by by doing the bare minimum to be a good car. The Civic, Mazda3, and Rabbit can do what a Corolla can do, and much more besides.
Mitlov
QUOTE(moethepaki @ Aug 6 2008, 03:26 PM) *
The problem with the Corolla for me is it gets by by doing the bare minimum to be a good car. The Civic, Mazda3, and Rabbit can do what a Corolla can do, and much more besides.


The Corolla trumps the Mazda3 when it comes to fuel economy (remember the US only gets the Mazda3 in 2.0 and 2.3L varieties, neither of which is particularly thrifty) and absolutely annihilates the Rabbit on that front. Fuel economy trumps steering feel for at least 9 out of 10 compact car buyers nowadays, at least in the States. So no, I don't agree that the Rabbit can do what a Corolla can do. The Rabbit and the Mazda3 are far better driver's machines, but I really do think that the new-gen Corolla is a superior transportation appliance. It all depends on what the buyer wants.

QUOTE
If the Prius is a midsize, it has to bear comparison to the Accord, Passat, new Mazda6, Altima, etc...all cars which do pretty much everything better than a Prius.


I haven't looked back to back at the exact headroom/legroom/cargo space statistics for those cars, but when I was a passenger in a friend's Prius, it was pleasantly refined, comfortable, and spacious enough so that it never felt small. And a Prius will reliably get 45-50 mpg in real-world driving, even if it doesn't get the insanely-high numbers originally claimed (65 mpg, IIRC). The cars you mention get a bit over half that. So while some of them (particularly the new Mazda6) may be better driver's cars, that doesn't mean that they do pretty much everything better. Like I said above, for 9 out of 10 buyers in this segment nowadays, fuel economy trumps steering feel.

The Prius and the Corolla aren't the right cars for you or for me, but that doesn't make them uncompetitive or subpar in their segments. Both of them are comfortable, refined, fuel-efficient vehicles with stellar reliability ratings (okay, the Corolla is new generation, but the engine is largely a carry-over, so the previous-generation's ratings may carry over as well).
moe
You've basically made fuel economy the major judge of a car's ability. Sure it may be selling cars in the US right now, but it is in no way a measurement of how good a car is.

As for the compact segment this is my view. Take a look at the entire segment in the US. Is there honestly a bad, or subpar car available? I think not. Even the Cobalt, the worst car I can think of in the class (sorry Drew), is a decent drive and screwed together respectably. At this point, I think the only way to pick out the class leaders is to see what cars are beyond just being "competitive." To me that's the Rabbit, Mazda3, and Civic. They may not have the same fuel economy of a Corolla, but they cater for everything a buyer of a "white goods" compact would want, and beyond that they actually manage to be interesting to look at and fun to drive. The Corolla has to take a step back here, because it's bland and uninspiring both to look at, and drive. That's my take on things.

EDIT: Just as I posted, I realized the Caliber exists. So there is a supbar compact hatch available...
Mitlov
QUOTE(moethepaki @ Aug 6 2008, 05:14 PM) *
You've basically made fuel economy the major judge of a car's ability. Sure it may be selling cars in the US right now, but it is in no way a measurement of how good a car is.


I'm not going just off of fuel economy. I'm going off of fuel economy PLUS refinement PLUS reliability. Those are Toyota's three great strengths in the eyes of the buying public, and the Prius and the new Corolla do deliver on that promise. Those three things are more important to a non-enthusiast (i.e., the vast majority of the population) than the driving excitement that makes the Rabbit and Mazda3 more attractive to you and me.

QUOTE
As for the compact segment this is my view. Take a look at the entire segment in the US. Is there honestly a bad, or subpar car available? I think not. Even the Cobalt, the worst car I can think of in the class (sorry Drew), is a decent drive and screwed together respectably. At this point, I think the only way to pick out the class leaders is to see what cars are beyond just being "competitive." To me that's the Rabbit, Mazda3, and Civic. They may not have the same fuel economy of a Corolla, but they cater for everything a buyer of a "white goods" compact would want, and beyond that they actually manage to be interesting to look at and fun to drive. The Corolla has to take a step back here, because it's bland and uninspiring both to look at, and drive. That's my take on things.

EDIT: Just as I posted, I realized the Caliber exists. So there is a supbar compact hatch available...


The Volkswagen has a questionable reliability history and poor fuel economy. The Lancer lacks refinement and has poor fuel economy. They do NOT deliver "everything a buyer of a 'white goods' compact would want" nearly as well as a Corolla does.

The Civic and Mazda come much closer to satisfying a non-enthusiast, but they still suffer from "the jack of all trades is the master of none" syndrome. A purpose-built pleasant transportation appliance is still going to be a better pleasant transportation appliance (not a better car overall, just a better pleasant transportation appliance) than something that is trying to be both that AND an engaging driver's car.
clarkma5
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Aug 6 2008, 05:31 PM) *
I'm not going just off of fuel economy. I'm going off of fuel economy PLUS refinement PLUS reliability. Those are Toyota's three great strengths in the eyes of the buying public, and the Prius and the new Corolla do deliver on that promise.


That's the thing, I think. Toyota is getting away with quality, refinement, and reliability murder (speaking relative to their past) because people still think Toyota = indestructible and well built. IMO the Corolla and the Prius DO NOT deliver on the promise of Toyota quality.

Anyway, the Rabbit justifies its higher fuel consumption with a noticeably stouter power and torque delivery as well as being larger, more feature-laden, and possessing more weight due to structural rigidity and sound dampening (honestly, the Rabbit and Jetta bridge the gap between the Civics and Corollas of the world to the larger midsized offerings, so it's a little bit difficult to compare them point-for-point to the typical compact class).
moe
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Aug 7 2008, 03:31 AM) *
The Civic and Mazda come much closer to satisfying a non-enthusiast, but they still suffer from "the jack of all trades is the master of none" syndrome. A purpose-built pleasant transportation appliance is still going to be a better pleasant transportation appliance (not a better car overall, just a better pleasant transportation appliance) than something that is trying to be both that AND an engaging driver's car.


This is starting to get really lame based on that statement.

EDIT: I retracted a previous statement. You guys are probably right. I've found I'm incapable of judging a car without taking a look at enthusiast things such as handling, character, etc.
Mitlov
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Aug 6 2008, 07:07 PM) *
That's the thing, I think. Toyota is getting away with quality, refinement, and reliability murder (speaking relative to their past) because people still think Toyota = indestructible and well built. IMO the Corolla and the Prius DO NOT deliver on the promise of Toyota quality.


I'm surprised you're focusing on the new Corolla and the Prius as examples of Toyota not delivering on the reliable/refined/efficient reputation. If you had chosen the new Tundra, I wouldn't argue one bit (what a fiasco). But those two?

As for efficiency, Both get great fuel economy, based off of EPA numbers.

As for reliability, the Prius has long enjoyed stellar Consumer Reports reliability ratings. The new Corolla is too new for data, but the drivetrain is largely a carryover from the ultra-reliable ninth generation, and I haven't heard of any problems with the tenth gen car.

As for refinement, I agree that the previous-gen Corolla was just plain too long in the tooth by the end of its run, and suffered in comparison tests. But I don't think that either the Prius or the tenth-gen Corolla give up anything in terms of refinement:

Edmunds Full Test: 2004 Toyota Prius

The Prius offers a comfortable ride with a soft but capable suspension.
* * *
The interior of the Prius is a pleasant surprise. There is a great feeling of openness due to the fact that it seems to utilize all the space of the greenhouse for visibility.
* * *
The hatchback's seats and door panels are covered in an attractive suedelike material. The front seats are comfortably bolstered and provide generous support. Rear-seat passengers will enjoy surprising legroom and will also benefit from added visibility through the aforementioned glass panes. Surrounding front and rear passengers are an assortment of cubbies and storage bins. Above the standard glove compartment is a second compartment that opens upward €š‚ a creative use of space. The cloth-covered center armrest is positioned at a perfect height and is wide enough for both front passengers to use it without the elbow-jousting.
* * *
Furthermore, the car is well insulated from sound and road noise, cutting fatigue on long highway trips.


Edmunds Full Test: 2009 Toyota Corolla S

Standard tilt-and-telescoping steering wheel adjustment plus a height-adjustable seat (for the S-model driver) distinguish this car from other cars designed for the Japanese market, and it fits American-size drivers in a way that the Honda Fit and Nissan Versa do not. Long-travel seat sliders with ample head-, shoulder and legroom plus a large trunk keep the Brobdignagians happy with a compact car from Lilliput. The S model's standard front sport seats are very comfortable for long trips as well as being supportive in the curves. For all these reasons, the driving position is excellent.
* * *
While the Corolla S ride comfort can be fairly characterized as calm and highly controlled, there is a noticeable amount of tire noise...At least wind noise is quite low.
* * *
Rear-seat comfort is slightly above average, with well-contoured seats and a surprising amount of legroom.
* * *
Where the Corolla really distinguishes itself from the rest of the compact sedan segment is in the packaging and presentation of the interior. While the previous Corolla wasn't objectionable, it wasn't all that interesting or exceptional. It was a little fussy and looked like a diminutive Camry. This time around, the Corolla has a clean, airy cabin with thoughtful placement of controls and new and welcome amenities such as that available navigation system with real-time traffic information (a feature that cannot be combined with the JBL audio upgrade, unfortunately), a standard auxiliary input jack and optional Bluetooth capability.

This is where the mantra of "an expensive car doesn't have to feel like a cheap car" rings true in the Corolla's case.


And don't think that Edmunds just blows sunshine up the cars' asses. They didn't pull any punches about the Corolla's steering feel.

The Toyota Corolla also came in third out of an eight-car Car & Driver comparison test...not bad considering that they tend to rate cars from a driving enthusiast perspective, not a mass-market perspective. C&D: Little Feet.

The top-of-the-class mileage is consistent with Toyota€š€žs reputation these days, and so is the hospitality of the Corolla€š€žs interior. No other here came close. Annoyance-free and verve-free, you might say; competence is the only flavor we detected.

Have there been negative reviews of the new Corolla that call it unrefined, cheap-feeling, or cited build quality issues? If so, post a link--I haven't seen any, but I don't read every magazine out there, either.

QUOTE
Anyway, the Rabbit justifies its higher fuel consumption with a noticeably stouter power and torque delivery as well as being larger, more feature-laden, and possessing more weight due to structural rigidity and sound dampening (honestly, the Rabbit and Jetta bridge the gap between the Civics and Corollas of the world to the larger midsized offerings, so it's a little bit difficult to compare them point-for-point to the typical compact class).


It's certainly a different sort of car than a Corolla, Civic, etc...no argument there. But remember, I wasn't arguing that the Corolla was a better car in every way over the Rabbit. Far from it. I was merely arguing against the position that "the Rabbit can do everything the Corolla can do and more." That's just plain not true. Each car has some advantages over the other.

BTW, is the Rabbit really roomier than its competition? Heavier and torquier I agree with, but I wasn't sure about roomier.
DaGonz
My father in law, who is a GM retiree just bought a 2008 Scion xB.
My 20 year old nephew jst bought a Scion tC special edition.
duality
this is something that would matter to me when i actually buy a car of my own...

Lexus leads J.D. Power dependability for 14th straight year

Phix
Ooo, Hyundai is above average. smile.gif

Also, Scion. That doesn't really make sense. How can Toyota be so high up but Scion so far below? HUMMER beat it. HUMMER. HUMMER!
Mitlov
QUOTE(Phix @ Aug 7 2008, 12:59 PM) *
Ooo, Hyundai is above average. smile.gif

Also, Scion. That doesn't really make sense. How can Toyota be so high up but Scion so far below? HUMMER beat it. HUMMER. HUMMER!


I don't think that ranking entire brands makes much sense. Take Toyota. The Yaris and Corolla and Tacoma are bulletproof, but the Tundra is a total effing fiasco. Or Mazda--the 3 is bulletproof but the RX-8 has had tons of issues (and not just with the rotary). Consumers don't buy entire brands, they buy specific models. So reliability for specific models is what matters. I'd rather have Consumer Reports ratings (component by component for a specific model) instead of JD Power's rankings of entire brands.

The other nice thing about component by component ratings is that not all reliability issues are equal. For example, rattles (or "body integrity" as CR says) are a hassle, but a busted transmission is a disaster. So you can see in CR's ratings that the TSX has a lot of rattles but a bulletproof drivetrain. With JD Power's system, you'd just see a lot of complaints about the TSX.
Phix
What does CR say about Hyundai? Spefically, the 2007+ Elantra?
Mitlov
QUOTE(Phix @ Aug 7 2008, 02:00 PM) *
What does CR say about Hyundai? Spefically, the 2007+ Elantra?


US News and World Report, June 2008: Hyundai Elantra is Consumer Reports' top small car

QUOTE
While the Honda Civic claimed the spot of best-selling vehicle in the U.S. last month, a rival took home another honor. "Consumer Reports€š€ž July edition, which goes on sale Tuesday, ranked the 2008 Hyundai Elantra SE first among a group of 19 compact sedans," according to the Detroit Free Press. "Ford-controlled Mazda was the only Detroit 3 brand to land a model among the top 10 in that category and the Chevrolet Aveo LT finished last among a group of 11 subcompact cars rated." That Honda Civic put up a fight. "With an overall score of 82, the Elantra SE nudged out second-ranked Honda Civic EX by less than a point." The Free Press adds, "The Elantra€š€žs rise to the top reflects improvements in Hyundai€š€žs entire lineup, which dwelled at or near the bottom just a few years ago."

Kicking Tires notes that the Elantra "earned Consumer Reports' 'excellent' rating in predicted reliability."
Phix
That makes me happy. smile.gif
Mitlov
QUOTE(Phix @ Aug 7 2008, 02:28 PM) *
That makes me happy. smile.gif


Why did DS and CS become Hyundai/Kia lovefests in the past week? I count two cool wall threads, two good car/bad car threads, a thread solely because of the Edmunds review of the Genesis, and now this thread has been diverted to a Hyundai discussion. What's going on here?

Not that I hate Hyundai/Kia, but I don't understand why a bunch of driving enthusiasts are suddenly doting on a good-but-not-exciting brand.
clarkma5
Phix's parents bought a 2008 Hyundai Elantra GLS Sport.

This happened to coincide with a lot of increased information/discussion on the Genesis.
Mitlov
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Aug 7 2008, 04:12 PM) *
Phix's parents bought a 2008 Hyundai Elantra GLS Sport.


Everything makes sense now. Thanks.
Mr b00st
QUOTE(Phix @ Aug 4 2008, 08:00 PM) *
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/04/scion-s...age-is-in-flux/

All I can say is... GOOD! But, the fact that speculation comes down to a hybrid or an SUV... would just mean that they'd end up attracting more people outside of 18 to 30 bracket again. More soccer moms. What kind of stupid logic is that?



Seriously, come on Scion... you want to attract young people with a soccer mom mobile or a hippy chariot? That's never worked, and it never will. Turbo, all wheel drive, and a nice body. Make it happen.
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