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Dr. Strangelove
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/29/europea...s-to-over-214k/

QUOTE
...Kroymans, a Dutch importer, which has revealed its price for the new uber-Vette: a whopping 136,000 euros, equivalent to over $214,000 USD at the moment.


For years we have sat back and watched car manufacturers screw on sports car pricing and availability. Finally, I can look across the pond and laugh derisively. Raspberry.gif







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clarkma5
ummm...what?

The US has always gotten the good side of international auto pricing for ages. That's still true. This really doesn't indicate any sort of change in the state of current affairs.
McKhaos
So?
Why buy the ZR-1 anyway, when you can have a GT-R V-spec?
duality
cars have always been more expensive here...so no one cares, or about this.
Uwe
Porsche GT3 RS in the USA: 124,900 $
in Germany: 135,035 EUR = 210,371 $ with today's exchange rate

And the german price is not the highest one: 195,152 EUR = 304,027 $ in the Netherlands (and if someone wants to have a look at the price in Norway then prepare for a heart attack).

Yes, we are screwed indeed. dry.gif
Mitlov
QUOTE(McKhaos @ Jul 29 2008, 10:56 PM) *
So?
Why buy the ZR-1 anyway, when you can have a GT-R V-spec?


huh.gif You're joking, right?
marcos_eirik
QUOTE(Uwe @ Jul 30 2008, 08:58 AM) *
Porsche GT3 RS in the USA: 124,900 $
in Germany: 135,035 EUR = 210,371 $ with today's exchange rate

(and if someone wants to have a look at the price in Norway then prepare for a heart attack).

Yes, we are screwed indeed. dry.gif

It's NOK 1'920'000 = $323'535 and Ä237'845, and that's before you add any extras so yeah, quite expensive here...
Marien
In the Netherlands you will pay 19% VAT and after that another 42.3% special tax just because you're buying a car...
OHirtenfelder
It doesnt really matter all that much. Its a Corvette. Europeans (so far) haven't been all that hot for American cars, simply because the european 'equivalent' has so far always been better and cheaper for them.
I'd also say GT-R...
Razor
QUOTE(McKhaos @ Jul 30 2008, 01:56 AM) *
So?
Why buy the ZR-1 anyway, when you can have a GT-R V-spec?


I agree. Or a normal GT-R would do just fine as well.
darinzon
GT-R.
dukenukem
QUOTE(OHirtenfelder @ Jul 30 2008, 05:02 AM) *
It doesnt really matter all that much. Its a Corvette. Europeans (so far) haven't been all that hot for American cars, simply because the european 'equivalent' has so far always been better and cheaper for them.
I'd also say GT-R...

Cheaper? I dont think so ...
Mitlov
QUOTE(dukenukem @ Jul 30 2008, 08:49 AM) *
Cheaper? I dont think so ...


Jeez, Duke, come on. Don't let facts interfere with the long and distinguished tradition of Europeans bashing American cars.

(On a related note, I recently was thinking of Jeremy Clarkson's review of the CTS-V where he tore it a new one for bonging when the seatbelt is undone or the door is open or the lights are left on after the engine is off...and I noticed that my Volkswagen does exactly the same thing).
Uwe
QUOTE(Marien @ Jul 30 2008, 11:40 AM) *
In the Netherlands you will pay 19% VAT and after that another 42.3% special tax just because you're buying a car...

Marien, you might be able to answer this. Is the dutch importer's price of the ZR1 so high because the special tax is already included?
Phix
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Jul 30 2008, 02:59 AM) *
huh.gif You're joking, right?

Care to clarify why you think he's joking? I'd just looove to hear this...
redlinehappiness
USA! USA! USA!
Mitlov
QUOTE(Phix @ Jul 30 2008, 10:09 AM) *
Care to clarify why you think he's joking? I'd just looove to hear this...


Sure, no problem.

QUOTE
Why buy the ZR-1 anyway, when you can have a GT-R V-spec?


That's easy. There are two types of performance cars.

Some sports cars use advanced all-wheel-drive systems, torque vectoring, highly-advanced stability and traction control programs, and dual-clutch automated manuals in order to deliver consistently fast times. The GT-R and the EVO fall into this category, and I'm sure the upcoming NSX and LF-A will as well. People who love this category sometimes love the cars because they love cutting-edge technology, because they love the results (blisteringly fast lap times given the cars' power-to-weight ratios), because they love the consistency, and sometimes because the car's refusal to bite back at driver error puts them at ease. On the other hand, some people hate this category of performance car because it's less involving.

Some sports cars use a more old-school approach to speed. Low weight, manual gearboxes, rear-wheel drive, few (or no) electronic nannies. Everything from the Corvette to the 911 to the Viper to the Exige falls into this category. People who love this category love it because of the driver involvement, and the sense of accomplishment from achieving fast lap times in such a car, and because of the potential for ultra-fast lap times in the hands of an expert thanks to the lower weight. On the other hand, some people dislike it because of the inconsistency of the results, the downright poor results in the hands of a non-expert, and the sometimes-treacherous nature of the cars.

The GT-R Spec V is a blisteringly-fast, relatively-affordable car the first category (relative to Ferraris and high-end Porsches, that is). The Corvette ZR1 is a a blisteringly-fast, relatively-affordable car the second category. I see the appeal to both categories. The statement "why buy a ZR1 when you can have a GT-R Spec V" completely ignores the fact that not everyone wants the first category of performance car.

That's why I thought he was joking. The statement to me was as ridiculous as "why would anybody want chocolate ice cream when they can have vanilla?"
Uwe
QUOTE(Phix @ Jul 30 2008, 07:09 PM) *
Care to clarify why you think he's joking? I'd just looove to hear this...

My answer would be like "The ZR1 and the GT-R are two totally different cars. One is a brutish beast and the other one is a Playstation on wheels."

And if I had to choose between the two: ZR1 any day.
Marien
QUOTE(Uwe @ Jul 30 2008, 06:48 PM) *
Marien, you might be able to answer this. Is the dutch importer's price of the ZR1 so high because the special tax is already included?


I found the following on autoblog.nl:

QUOTE
De Corvette ZR1 wordt dit najaar bij het officiŽle Corvette-dealernetwerk in Europa verwacht en de verkoopprijs in Nederland is nu vastgesteld op 199.990 Euro inclusief btw/bpm.


For you who don't speak Dutch (which is really a shame wink.gif) it says:
"The ZR1 is expected at the official Europe dealer network this fall and the price in the Netherlands is now pinned at 199.990 Euro including VAT/car tax"

So it seams that the price of 136.000 EUR is going to be the 'base' price.
infinity
...Dutch is such a bizarre language to look at.
Uwe
QUOTE(infinity935 @ Jul 30 2008, 08:39 PM) *
...Dutch is such a bizarre language to look at.

You've never heard it, mate. tongue.gif
Blue Devil
QUOTE(Uwe @ Jul 30 2008, 09:56 AM) *
My answer would be like "The ZR1 and the GT-R are two totally different cars. One is a brutish beast and the other one is a Playstation on wheels."

And if I had to choose between the two: ZR1 any day.



that's probably the BEST description of the GT-R I have heard in a while.
infinity
It's probably the most common description of the GT-R I have heard.
midnightdorifto
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Jul 30 2008, 09:51 AM) *
Sure, no problem.
That's easy. There are two types of performance cars.

Some sports cars use advanced all-wheel-drive systems, torque vectoring, highly-advanced stability and traction control programs, and dual-clutch automated manuals in order to deliver consistently fast times. The GT-R and the EVO fall into this category, and I'm sure the upcoming NSX and LF-A will as well. People who love this category sometimes love the cars because they love cutting-edge technology, because they love the results (blisteringly fast lap times given the cars' power-to-weight ratios), because they love the consistency, and sometimes because the car's refusal to bite back at driver error puts them at ease. On the other hand, some people hate this category of performance car because it's less involving.

Some sports cars use a more old-school approach to speed. Low weight, manual gearboxes, rear-wheel drive, few (or no) electronic nannies. Everything from the Corvette to the 911 to the Viper to the Exige falls into this category. People who love this category love it because of the driver involvement, and the sense of accomplishment from achieving fast lap times in such a car, and because of the potential for ultra-fast lap times in the hands of an expert thanks to the lower weight. On the other hand, some people dislike it because of the inconsistency of the results, the downright poor results in the hands of a non-expert, and the sometimes-treacherous nature of the cars.

The GT-R Spec V is a blisteringly-fast, relatively-affordable car the first category (relative to Ferraris and high-end Porsches, that is). The Corvette ZR1 is a a blisteringly-fast, relatively-affordable car the second category. I see the appeal to both categories. The statement "why buy a ZR1 when you can have a GT-R Spec V" completely ignores the fact that not everyone wants the first category of performance car.

That's why I thought he was joking. The statement to me was as ridiculous as "why would anybody want chocolate ice cream when they can have vanilla?"

Wow, I think we're on the same page here, Mitlov. +1. Well said.
Dr. Strangelove
What happened to DS? I remember not too long ago, we used to post opinions and then rag on each other for them. Now every time someone posts up what they think, someone else goes "There are other viewpoints on the matter and you need to recognise that." It's true, but it's boring. I remember when DS used to be fun.
clarkma5
This was some good hearty debate. It was almost like classic DS.
Phix
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Jul 31 2008, 01:43 AM) *
What happened to DS? I remember not too long ago, we used to post opinions and then rag on each other for them. Now every time someone posts up what they think, someone else goes "There are other viewpoints on the matter and you need to recognise that." It's true, but it's boring. I remember when DS used to be fun.

The old DS is dead. It died a long time ago and it's not coming back. The final nail in the coffin was the sale of the site.
Mitlov
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Jul 30 2008, 10:43 PM) *
What happened to DS? I remember not too long ago, we used to post opinions and then rag on each other for them. Now every time someone posts up what they think, someone else goes "There are other viewpoints on the matter and you need to recognise that." It's true, but it's boring. I remember when DS used to be fun.


You miss the days where one person would state one extreme view, another would state an opposing but equally extreme view, the first guy would launch into an ad hominem attack, and things would devolve from there? Flaming the same half-dozen people over and over and over and over gets tiresome, IMO. Then again, I have to deal interact with over-aggressive, pissed-off people for a living, so it's not really a hobby anymore for me. Your mileage may vary.

Yes, that last sentence was deliberate. wink.gif
tune
Old DS was better, just generally there was more traffic and car topics, more burns, more arguements with Dakian. Although I think there is more overall technical knowledge in the members we have now.
Dr. Strangelove
DS doesn't have to suck. The sale of the site really didn't change anything. We can make it what it used to be. DS can be fun again.

infinity
BRING BACK DAKIAN!

...well maybe.
midnightdorifto
QUOTE(Dr. Strangelove @ Jul 30 2008, 09:43 PM) *
What happened to DS? I remember not too long ago, we used to post opinions and then rag on each other for them. Now every time someone posts up what they think, someone else goes "There are other viewpoints on the matter and you need to recognise that." It's true, but it's boring. I remember when DS used to be fun.

http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewForums=y

There you go, must've gotten the links messed up. Happens to the best of us.

I miss the old site a bit, but that's mostly because of the members that left that had a wealth of knowledge as opposed to the influx of "car enthusiasts" who don't know a goddamn thing about cars. This was a good debate, devoid of all the crap I have to put up with elsewhere on the internet. If you want insanity and people ragging on each other, go to FinalGear. Knock yourself out. The only flaming I miss was getting n00bs banned or straight up leaving in record time.
clarkma5
Old DS had some good car debates but it had far more just flaming and needless aggression. I outgrew that at about the same pace as the forum itself did, fortunately. I like the more sedate DS, it's still entertaining and it's just a more reasonable place to be.
Mitlov
QUOTE(clarkma5 @ Jul 31 2008, 04:10 PM) *
Old DS had some good car debates but it had far more just flaming and needless aggression. I outgrew that at about the same pace as the forum itself did, fortunately. I like the more sedate DS, it's still entertaining and it's just a more reasonable place to be.


I couldn't agree more.

The catalyst to my extended vacation from DS was a debate, which was about the Civic Si, if I recall, though I could be wrong. Anyway, I expressed my opinion (which I think was basically "rah rah rah go Si," I think), and someone responded by calling my wife and me irresponsible for getting pregnant. Okay, that's bullshit, no matter what way you slice it, unless you're a REALLY good friend of mine. And nobody on this site--nobody--knew me well enough to take a pot shot at my pregnant wife during a debate about cars.

When I came back a year or so later, some of the flame warriors had left, and everyone else had chilled out a bit. It was a bit quiet, but debates were generally level-headed. It was exactly the sort of car forum I wanted to be a part of.

And for the record because somebody else addressed the sale of the site as the "last nail in the coffin," the character was exactly how it is today when I came back, and I came back before the site was sold to Ketan. I don't think the character of the discussions changed one iota when the site was sold.
caster
After reading such a great thread I was compelled to respond, which I hardly do, but I'd like to say hats off to Mitlov, that was a great way of explaining both cars. About the old DS vs new DS, unfortunately I wasn't around for the old one, but I try to read as many old threads as possible and they're just down right hilarious. I couldn't help but laugh at Mitlov's description about the old DS imagining the threads in my head lol. I have to give respect where its due and most of you guys here are very knowledgeable about cars (or at least it seems like it), half the reason I love reading DS is just because I learn so much reading the posts. Well that and because they're incredibly funny.
Phix
QUOTE(caster @ Jul 31 2008, 11:16 PM) *
After reading such a great thread I was compelled to respond, which I hardly do, but I'd like to say hats off to Mitlov, that was a great way of explaining both cars. About the old DS vs new DS, unfortunately I wasn't around for the old one, but I try to read as many old threads as possible and they're just down right hilarious. I couldn't help but laugh at Mitlov's description about the old DS imagining the threads in my head lol. I have to give respect where its due and most of you guys here are very knowledgeable about cars (or at least it seems like it), half the reason I love reading DS is just because I learn so much reading the posts. Well that and because they're incredibly funny.

And that's exactly what I mean! That hilarity is all but gone in DS. It's just a bunch of dour pipe smoking old men comparing reviews and spec sheets to one other with as much emotion as dripping water.
Mitlov
QUOTE(Phix @ Jul 31 2008, 08:38 PM) *
And that's exactly what I mean! That hilarity is all but gone in DS. It's just a bunch of dour pipe smoking old men comparing reviews and spec sheets to one other with as much emotion as dripping water.


Hilarity? Aw, fuck off. You always criticize me for not being emotional? Well here's some for ya.

There is NOTHING hilarious about someone casting aspersions on a guy's pregnant wife/fiance/girlfriend just because you don't like the guy's views on cars/politics/whatever. You just fucking don't do it, especially when you've never met the guy and don't really know him. It's not hilarious, it's fighting words. Try that shit in person to the husband of a pregnant woman and you're likely to get your face rearranged. And you think it's hilarious when some small, cowardly man tries that crap from the safe anonymity of a keyboard?

Maybe you can't understand until you've been there yourself. But you just don't cast aspersions on a dude's pregnant wife/fiance. You just fucking don't do it.
clarkma5
...I'm sure phix was not even talking about that specific incident, mitlov, calm down. He was just talking about the shift in general attitude on this forum.
Phix
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Aug 1 2008, 12:25 AM) *
Hilarity? Aw, fuck off. You always criticize me for not being emotional? Well here's some for ya.

There is NOTHING hilarious about someone casting aspersions on a guy's pregnant wife/fiance/girlfriend just because you don't like the guy's views on cars/politics/whatever. You just fucking don't do it, especially when you've never met the guy and don't really know him. It's not hilarious, it's fighting words. Try that shit in person to the husband of a pregnant woman and you're likely to get your face rearranged. And you think it's hilarious when some small, cowardly man tries that crap from the safe anonymity of a keyboard?

Maybe you can't understand until you've been there yourself. But you just don't cast aspersions on a dude's pregnant wife/fiance. You just fucking don't do it.

I'd like you to point out where I specifically alluded to that we need more dissing of people's pregnant wives here?

All I did was agree with caster's opinion about the funny on DS. In fact, not once during this entire thread have I ever replied saying how I missed Dakian or Dakian's insults (I do believe it was dakian or at least white_rsx) that made that quip about you and your wife.

Holy fucking shit. Are you still not over it? That person doesn't even come to DS anymore. What? You think "old DS" was entirely composed of making fun of peoples wives?

Are you going to flip on caster next for saying how the old threads were funny as well? Cause, I guess, every single old funny thread here was a direct personal insult directed at you?
Mitlov
Of course that person doesn't come to DS anymore. That's the whole point. That was an example of the "old" DS that isn't here anymore.

And the point of my post was not that I wanted to focus on that one incident itself. But that sort of stupid shit happened all the time at the old DS. Homophobic comments happened daily. No, hourly. Racist comments weren't all that rare either, and while some were buddies ribbing each other in good fun, others were not. People sometimes got flamed for no reason whatsoever, and a lot of the hits were below the belt. What I described was just one example out of many such incidents. It was the attitude that that sort of thing was not just acceptable, but awesome, was what made DS sometimes resemble a middle school locker room.

So no, I'm not nostalgic for the old DS and its "hilarity." Not one bit.
Uwe
I just phoned with Richard Branson from Virgin Air. He likes the idea of exchanging forum arguments face-to-face and will give us a special Dieselstation forum discount on his flight tickets. Video camera is mandatory, boxing gloves in Virgin Air colors will be provided for free.
Cyclone
Holy crap what a bitch fest this is. All of you fuckers shut up.
Halflifehavock13
To be more on topic: Exchange rate FTL.
McKhaos
QUOTE(Mitlov @ Aug 1 2008, 05:25 AM) *
There is NOTHING hilarious about someone casting aspersions on a guy's pregnant wife/fiance/girlfriend just because you don't like the guy's views on cars/politics/whatever. You just fucking don't do it, especially when you've never met the guy and don't really know him. It's not hilarious, it's fighting words. Try that shit in person to the husband of a pregnant woman and you're likely to get your face rearranged. And you think it's hilarious when some small, cowardly man tries that crap from the safe anonymity of a keyboard?


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