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> 2009 Nissan GT-R (R35), The New Generation of GT-R
2009 NISSAN GT-R (R35)
Good or Bad
Frozen [ 22 ] ** [35.48%]
Cool [ 20 ] ** [32.26%]
Uncool [ 15 ] ** [24.19%]
MJU [ 5 ] ** [8.06%]
Total Votes: 62
  
Uwe
post Jun 25 2008, 07:41 AM
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I don't know if you ever experienced what power to weight ratio really means but here is some food for thought: A Porsche Carrera GT has 2.3 kg/hp, the GT-R (according to the data given by Nissan) has 3.7 kg/hp. And the GT-R should have done a laptime only 2 seconds slower than a CGT with Walter Röhrl at the wheel, one of the best Ring drivers the world has ever seen?

My opinion on that is very explicit: NO FUCKING WAY!
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Mitlov
post Jun 25 2008, 08:04 AM
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QUOTE(Uwe @ Jun 25 2008, 08:41 AM) *
I don't know if you ever experienced what power to weight ratio really means but here is some food for thought: A Porsche Carrera GT has 2.3 kg/hp, the GT-R (according to the data given by Nissan) has 3.7 kg/hp. And the GT-R should have done a laptime only 2 seconds slower than a CGT with Walter Röhrl at the wheel, one of the best Ring drivers the world has ever seen?

My opinion on that is very explicit: NO FUCKING WAY!


I've been riding motorcycles for 11 years. I certainly have experienced vehicles with insanely-good power-to-weight ratios.

I also know that cars that don't look faster on paper OFTEN are. There's a whole lot more to speed on a twisty course than power and weight.
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Synesthesia
post Jun 25 2008, 09:12 AM
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This is the cool wall, so I don't give a damn about price or 'Ring laptimes. It's not I can buy it cheap, it's $70k versus $100k cheap. It's not substantially faster than it's competition, it's a couple of seconds faster around a 13 MILE TRACK. It doesn't offer a manual transmission, it's more computer than car (hill start assist!?). I don't particularly like the way it looks (as mentioned, it looks like it was designed by an engineer -- which I don't see as a positive) and as mentioned it has no sex appeal. Not cool.
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Mitlov
post Jun 25 2008, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE(Synesthesia @ Jun 25 2008, 10:12 AM) *
It's not substantially faster than it's competition,


Not that I disagree with the rest of your post, but if "its competition" involves similarly-priced cars, it really IS faster. Way faster. The GT-R is slightly cheaper than a base 911 Carrera or BMW 650i; a 911 Turbo is nearly twice the price of a GT-R. Of course, the GT-R doesn't compete image-wise and prestige-wise with ANY of those cars; it shares more in attitude with an EVO than anything else I can think of.

The Chevy Corvette Z06 is similar in price to a GT-R, and was 14 seconds slower. So that one is somewhat slower, but still pretty comparable. But the GT-R absolutely demolishes anything else in the $70k range.

This is what I used for lap time comparisons. I realize wikipedia isn't perfect, so if the information was inaccurate, I apologize: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times
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eraser_rx
post Jun 25 2008, 02:24 PM
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by cheating, he means the traction and stability are corrected with computers, not by human foot or by steering work
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Mitlov
post Jun 25 2008, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE(eraser_rx @ Jun 25 2008, 03:24 PM) *
by cheating, he means the traction and stability are corrected with computers, not by human foot or by steering work


I understood him to mean that the GT-R that made the Nurburgring lap was a "ringer"--that it wasn't actually a production-spec GT-R. That's been a common accusation. Clarification, Uwe?
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Uwe
post Jun 25 2008, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE(Mitlov @ Jun 26 2008, 12:34 AM) *
I understood him to mean that the GT-R that made the Nurburgring lap was a "ringer"--that it wasn't actually a production-spec GT-R. That's been a common accusation. Clarification, Uwe?

That was exactly what I meant, Mitlov.

Only two more words on it. I actually have a car that has 3.5 kg/bhp and I actually have driven the Ring often enough. I have driven against people with cars that had a lot less than 3 kg/bhp and that were otherwise comparable. There is no way you can make that disadvantage up with some clever eStuff.

I will quit this discussion now because I think I've made my point clear enough. I'll wait until the real production car comes out and I am sure it will be fast but I'm sure as well it will be not as fast as Nissan wants to make us believe now.
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Mitlov
post Jun 25 2008, 03:46 PM
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The fact that the GT-R continually sparks this degree of anger and distrust among "old schoolers" and "purists" makes it even cooler in my mind...it's iconoclasm on four wheels.
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midnightdorifto
post Jun 25 2008, 08:46 PM
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QUOTE(Synesthesia @ Jun 25 2008, 09:12 AM) *
This is the cool wall, so I don't give a damn about price or 'Ring laptimes. It's not I can buy it cheap, it's $70k versus $100k cheap. It's not substantially faster than it's competition, it's a couple of seconds faster around a 13 MILE TRACK. It doesn't offer a manual transmission, it's more computer than car (hill start assist!?). I don't particularly like the way it looks (as mentioned, it looks like it was designed by an engineer -- which I don't see as a positive) and as mentioned it has no sex appeal. Not cool.

Damnit all, that was the one I was going to top my list with - no third pedal. That seals the deal for me.

QUOTE(Mitlov @ Jun 25 2008, 03:46 PM) *
The fact that the GT-R continually sparks this degree of anger and distrust among "old schoolers" and "purists" makes it even cooler in my mind...it's iconoclasm on four wheels.

Here's how this plays out in my mind:

This isn't like the big uproar of when they went to FI over carburetors, nor is it like when F1 went to V8s or lost the forced induction. To me, this is a baseball thing. When aluminum bats came out, they could drive the ball just a bit further and a bit harder than their wooden counterparts. Suddenly, every half-decent ball player out there looks like Hank Aaron, smashing the hell out of ball after ball. With a bigger sweet spot, and that *klang* noise they make, they simply were slightly superior to their wooden cousins. In essence, lesser players could prevail.

Yeah, the GT-R evens the playing field and can even make you and me look like Tom Kristensen. It's easy, its big, its fast, and every 14-year-old wants one. But for "old schoolers" and "purists" like me, well, hell, I still respect raw skill and talent over engineering prowess. Sure, its neat, its fun, and it can save my ham-fisted ass in a heartbeat when I actually begin to think that I am Tom Kristensen. But when I'm imagining myself sitting, watching a track day, I'll root for the guy who doesn't have more systems with acronyms for names than I can count on two hands. Don't get me wrong, I still voted cool because this is an engineering work of art, but it isn't anything really special.

The GT-R is the aluminum bat of cars - its a superior piece of equipment in terms of what it will do for you, but don't expect anyone else to respect any lap time you may (or may not, in Nissan's case) have earned. Again, at the end of the day, I'm rooting for the driver - not the car. Maybe that's personal preference, maybe I'm out-dated, maybe I should get a car with A/C and power windows and a working defroster and see what life is like with modern technology. But for me? Fun isn't an acronym.

EDIT: I'm talking about college ball here, folks. Real professionals still use wooden bats.
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Mitlov
post Jun 25 2008, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE(midnightdorifto @ Jun 25 2008, 09:46 PM) *
I still respect raw skill and talent over engineering prowess.


Engineering prowess is a fundamental part of performance cars. Engineering prowess is what separates a Porsche 911 from a Toyota Solara.

Shit, if it weren't for engineering prowess, this is what F1 would look like:



And this would be the WRC:

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clarkma5
post Jun 25 2008, 10:06 PM
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MJU. There aren't many cars that leave me colder.
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midnightdorifto
post Jun 26 2008, 03:17 AM
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QUOTE(Mitlov @ Jun 25 2008, 09:48 PM) *
Engineering prowess is a fundamental part of performance cars. Engineering prowess is what separates a Porsche 911 from a Toyota Solara.

Shit, if it weren't for engineering prowess, this is what F1 would look like:

And this would be the WRC:

You're missing the point. I gave the thing a cool because it was such a feat of engineering - if you're trying to peg me as a Luddite, you're way off the mark. But when it comes to my driving experience or racing, I can only get so excited about cars that take any form of technology that dumbs down the driving experience. And that's what the GT-R is - speed for idiots.

Most anyone can take a GT-R and be fast out of the box - and that might be just fine for you. Hell, I love going fast. But like I said before, this is beating a video game on easy - there is no challenge. This car will never be as rewarding as I prefer for just that fact.

And I most certainly don't subscribe to the fact that engineering prowess is a fundamental part of performance cars. I think back to the Cobras, Tigers, Elans, TVRs (sorry duke), Allards, Sevens, and GTI's (the Mk. 1) and am reminded that these weren't the most sophisticated cars of their day. I'll agree that it is extremely important and that frequently this reaching for the technological bleeding edge is a part of what the performance segment does, but I favor a philosophy of simplicity over a philosophy of sophistication.

Again, that's just my opinion, not dogging the fans of the GT-R.
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Mitlov
post Jun 26 2008, 06:28 AM
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QUOTE(midnightdorifto @ Jun 26 2008, 04:17 AM) *
And that's what the GT-R is - speed for idiots.
...
Again, that's just my opinion, not dogging the fans of the GT-R.


Of course you're not.
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Synesthesia
post Jun 26 2008, 12:23 PM
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Come on Miltov, drop it. He's not saying people who like the GT-R are idiots, he's just saying you can be an idiot and still go fast in a GT-R.
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clarkma5
post Jun 26 2008, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE(Synesthesia @ Jun 26 2008, 01:23 PM) *
Come on Miltov, drop it. He's not saying people who like the GT-R are idiots, he's just saying you can be an idiot and still go fast in a GT-R.


Exactly.
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midnightdorifto
post Jun 26 2008, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE(Mitlov @ Jun 26 2008, 06:28 AM) *
Of course you're not.


QUOTE(Synesthesia @ Jun 26 2008, 12:23 PM) *
Come on Miltov, drop it. He's not saying people who like the GT-R are idiots, he's just saying you can be an idiot and still go fast in a GT-R.

Thank you.
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moe
post Jun 26 2008, 03:25 PM
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I think Mitlov's blatant fanboyism for the GT-R will single handedly drive this car into MJU...tongue.gif

I still think it's ugly, and just a tad too soulless for my taste.
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Mitlov
post Jun 26 2008, 05:29 PM
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midnight,

Apologies for the misunderstanding.
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midnightdorifto
post Jun 26 2008, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE(Mitlov @ Jun 26 2008, 05:29 PM) *
midnight,

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I'm just happy to see you still have emotions, kimosabe. Raspberry.gif

And like I said before, I think the GT-R is a cool car. But it will never be frozen in my book.
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nismo
post Jul 1 2008, 03:12 AM
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I'm pretty underwhelmed with this car.

Plus, automatic only. Fuck that.
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